Recently, a horrifying video went viral on YouTube. It shows an individual abusing several others in a public place. But that’s enough about Benton / Clarkson. Even more recently, another video was published on YouTube that captured a 34-year old Emma West, possibly the mother of the young boy on her knee, on the Croydon-to-Wimbledon Tramlink route, verbally abusing the other passengers for their ethnic origins. She is clearly finding multicultural Britain a challenge.
West: What has this country come to? A load of black people and a load of fucking Polish? You ain’t English. You ain’t English either. None of you are fucking English. Get back to your own… D’you know what? Sort out your own countries, don’t come and do mine. Britain is nothing now. Britain’s fuck all. My Britain’s fuck all now. My British is fuck all.
Passenger 1 (female): Excuse me dear, there are little kids round the tram.
West: Yeah, it’s fine. I’ve got a little kid here.
Passenger 1: Have respect, yeah?
West: Have respect too. I’ve got a little boy here.
Passenger 1: Well get off the tram then.
West: Fuck you
Passenger 1: Someone needs to throw you off.
West: Really.
Passenger 1: Yes.
West: I dare you, I fucking dare you.
Passenger 1: Just watch your language, man.
West: Don’t watch my language. Go back to where you come from. Go back to fucking Nigrafrica. Just fucking go back.
Passenger 1: If we don’t come here you guys don’t want to work. We have to do the work for you.
West: Really? I work. I work. I work. This is my British country. Until they let you lot come over.
Passenger 1: So what if it’s your British country?
West: So what? It’s my British country. You ain’t British. You ain’t British.
Passenger 1: Yes I am.
West: You ain’t fucking British. Fuck off. You ain’t British you’re black.
[sounds like a kid starts crying]
West: Where do you come from? Where do you come from?
[A second woman gets involved]
Passenger 2: Now you’re fucking waking my baby up so d’you wanna shut your mouth?
Passenger 1: Where’s she come from?
Passenger 2: Shh cos now you’re waking my baby up. I’m English. What have you got to say to me? Fuck all. Now shut your mouth.
West: Shut your face.
Passenger 2: No I won’t shut my face.
West: Someone’s got to talk up for these lot. Look the whole fucking tram [pointing], look at ‘em.
Passenger 2: No, it ain’t.
West: It’s all black and fucking brown people
Passenger 1 (female): Excuse me dear, there are little kids round the tram.
West: Yeah, it’s fine. I’ve got a little kid here.
Passenger 1: Have respect, yeah?
West: Have respect too. I’ve got a little boy here.
Passenger 1: Well get off the tram then.
West: Fuck you
Passenger 1: Someone needs to throw you off.
West: Really.
Passenger 1: Yes.
West: I dare you, I fucking dare you.
Passenger 1: Just watch your language, man.
West: Don’t watch my language. Go back to where you come from. Go back to fucking Nigrafrica. Just fucking go back.
Passenger 1: If we don’t come here you guys don’t want to work. We have to do the work for you.
West: Really? I work. I work. I work. This is my British country. Until they let you lot come over.
Passenger 1: So what if it’s your British country?
West: So what? It’s my British country. You ain’t British. You ain’t British.
Passenger 1: Yes I am.
West: You ain’t fucking British. Fuck off. You ain’t British you’re black.
[sounds like a kid starts crying]
West: Where do you come from? Where do you come from?
[A second woman gets involved]
Passenger 2: Now you’re fucking waking my baby up so d’you wanna shut your mouth?
Passenger 1: Where’s she come from?
Passenger 2: Shh cos now you’re waking my baby up. I’m English. What have you got to say to me? Fuck all. Now shut your mouth.
West: Shut your face.
Passenger 2: No I won’t shut my face.
West: Someone’s got to talk up for these lot. Look the whole fucking tram [pointing], look at ‘em.
Passenger 2: No, it ain’t.
West: It’s all black and fucking brown people
It’s a sad situation that anyone is in that mindset at all (I doubt very much that she has any sense of the old Britain that she claims to miss, the historic reasons that lead to our relaxed immigration laws, namely the debt we felt owed after Commonwealth involvement in the Second World War, and the benefits subsequently contributed by ethnic minorities to our current society and culture), and additionally how the women’s coherency seems in someway affected: there is clearly an additional suggestion of substance abuse or mental illness. Demanding her fellow passengers, “You’re in my country now, talk my language”, is ironic as having lived here all my life, a decade longer than Ms West, I can’t understand half of what she’s saying.
Sadder is how this is nowhere near an isolated case (e.g., other videos, titled “in train london bridge” and “welcome to London”) and how these videos with hateful content then draw out a disturbing number of, mainly anonymous, comments in support of their racism. What cowards they are to hide behind their anonymity.
Simply scrolling down the viewers’ comments brings up a stream of hatred. Clicking on those YouTube members’ names takes you to their channel homepage. It’s immediately obvious, or soon becomes so, on seeing their own video uploads, favorites and comments on other members’ videos (shown under their activity), whether they were randomly mouthing off, taking an opportunity to vent some spleen, atypical of their usual online behaviour, or if they are systematic in their racism and overtly neo-nazi. Both are indefensible, but the latter are the more reprehensible, have an agenda, and need stopping.
Public and social media must not provide a forum for dissemination of hatred. It makes it easy. It facilitates the spreading of hate. If driven underground, there are logistic issues in accessing the material, rather than it being glorified in easily accessible places. The hope is that if sufficiently inconvenient, some number of the haters will not be bothered enough to invest their energies in seeking alternatives or finding a workaround.
Don’t be naïve about the role of the internet in maintaining these communities. Anders Breivik documented his appreciation of social media in making connections and receiving support from neo-nazi groups online. Communication of this content does lead to hate crime. It is indefensible to host this material online. YouTube and other platforms must be held accountable for their actions. YouTube owners and administrators, it is not possible to be ignorant that it resides on your servers; it takes less than five minutes to find offending YouTube channels. Your hosting of this material is complicit in the dissemination and promotion of racism.
YouTube, Facebook and Twitter all carry undesirable content: profanity, prurience, pugnacity, etc., but it’s with good reason that we have laws against discrimination and inciting hatred, in order to interrupt the paths that lead to hate crime, harassment and threat, destruction of property, ABH, GBH, murder:
- Shop murder may have been racially motivated: 30-year-old dad of two, who has children aged three and six, was stabbed in the neck
- A Muslim woman, 52, was spat at and abused by a gang of six teenagers in Telford who pulled off her religious headdress in a racially motivated attack.
- Bodmin is sickened by racist attack at store: Muhammad Fiaz, 45, was verbally abused and had paint thrown over him, his till and stock
A murder and two non-fatal attacks. All within 2 weeks. How many incidents go unreported, or don’t make the news?
How many attacks are not deemed racially motivated through lack of evidence? They’re not all as clear-cut as this shameful example,
- Five white youths who shouted “What – what, nigger?” at Stephen Lawrence before forcing him to the ground and killing him did so for no other reason than the colour of his skin.
The video evidence of her outburst has led Emma West to being charged by magistrates for a racially-aggravated public order offence and held over in custody until a hearing next week. If that is her child, then their welfare is a concern. Meanwhile, it’s no surprise that BNP-anal-leakage, Britain First are campaigning for her release.
But what about all that other explicit, neo-nazi online activity out there? Well, there are some things that we can do. Here are the results of three quick and easy trials that will have a real positive impact in removing hateful content, if enough of us give it a go. There’s not much direct action we can take via the internet, but this does give results:
a) find a YouTube video attracting racist comments, for example, “My Tram Experience“.
b) From the comments, and viewing channel pages by clicking on the commenters’ names, identify which accounts are broadcasting hateful material.
1. Then, inconveniently, force removal of users’ comments by openly identifying them. I publicly highlighted YouTube user GruesomeGertie‘s (renamed n0w1kn0w, in line with @n0w1kn0w on Twitter) comment about the “Tram” video which basically applauded West for being outspoken. I wrote of their involvement in a tweet,
“…see the comment left by GruesomeGertie @n0w1kn0w here http://t.co/aGn8udO9″
and the comment was swiftly removed a short time after. This is a form of name and shame.
2. And, annoyingly, if the user’s YouTube channel background is typically a nazi flag, or offensive in any way, scroll to the bottom of the page and click on
“Report background graphic.”
You should then see,
“Thank you. This user’s background image has been reported.”
3. Whilst, ultimately, seek suspension of neo-nazi YouTube accounts. I have forced closure of at least 2 (lastwhiteman202 and lastwhiteman203). You can too. Here’s how:
For example, follow this walk though complaint about Turknazipartisi66
http://www.youtube.com/user/Turknazipartisi66
If this works, then hopefully you’ll get the following message when you click on the above link,
“This account has been suspended due to multiple or severe violations of YouTube’s policy prohibiting hate speech.”
i) Use this link to use the YouTube Help Safety feature
http://www.youtube.com/safety_help
ii) “What is the issue?”
Select “Hate Speech”
Click Continue button.
iii) “Do you still wish to continue with reporting hate speech?”
Select “Yes”
Click Continue button.
iv) “Please select the entry that fits your situation”
Select “This user is using hate speech against a protected group”
Click Continue button.
v) “User’s name”
Enter the YouTube user’s name (e.g., Turknazipartisi66)
Click Continue button.
vi) “Tell us why you are reporting this user”
Select “[user] is using hate speech against a protected group”
Select “Race or ethnic origin”
Click Continue button.
vii) “Select an item from the left”
If the channel has offensive uploads then select “Videos” or “Video Responses”, as appropriate.
If the user has left offensive comments then select “Video Comments” or “Channel Comments”, as appropriate.
In either case, follow instructions.
vii) On the final page of this process you will be offered the chance to leave a comment. I typically add something like,
“Hosting neo-nazi content is tantamount to promoting and inciting hate crime.
YouTube must seek out and remove all such content.”
If enough people protest about YouTube hosting this content then they will be forced to act. Please do root out these YouTube channels and use the above procedure to report them. In doing so, please remember, there is a difference between content for historical interest, and contents and comments used to incite hatred and attack minorities and other ethnic groups. It will be obvious. Start with the following users:
http://www.youtube.com/user/michiskin
http://www.youtube.com/user/88Panther88
http://www.youtube.com/user/AngieLovesChaz08
http://www.youtube.com/user/gloriawp1
http://www.youtube.com/user/DUKE8809
http://www.youtube.com/user/buh4226
http://www.youtube.com/user/UOGforlife
http://www.youtube.com/user/StukaAttacks88
http://www.youtube.com/user/WhiteNoiseClub
http://www.youtube.com/user/atego08
http://www.youtube.com/user/IntJewryWonWW2
http://www.youtube.com/user/Hinomoto81
http://www.youtube.com/user/evabraun11
http://www.youtube.com/user/ImperiumArianes666
http://www.youtube.com/user/TruthseekTruthtell
http://www.youtube.com/user/BandOfBrothers25
http://www.youtube.com/user/DeutschlandFrau
http://www.youtube.com/user/Wehrmacht10
http://www.youtube.com/user/francons88
http://www.youtube.com/user/PureAryanBlood1488
http://www.youtube.com/user/Insane777Shane
http://www.youtube.com/user/NSGWP1
http://www.youtube.com/user/SSbombardmentXll
http://www.youtube.com/user/Einsatzgruppenn
http://www.youtube.com/user/rytis2005
http://www.youtube.com/user/SweetAryanAngel
http://www.youtube.com/user/EuropeanFascism
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheKkkbrotherhood
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProudAryanSkin88
http://www.youtube.com/user/1488naziskin
http://www.youtube.com/user/hidingblackviolence2
http://www.youtube.com/user/AdolfHitlerRules88
http://www.youtube.com/user/boyslipnkot666
http://www.youtube.com/user/NSAryan28
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNonJewMedia
http://www.youtube.com/user/88Panther88
http://www.youtube.com/user/AngieLovesChaz08
http://www.youtube.com/user/gloriawp1
http://www.youtube.com/user/DUKE8809
http://www.youtube.com/user/buh4226
http://www.youtube.com/user/UOGforlife
http://www.youtube.com/user/StukaAttacks88
http://www.youtube.com/user/WhiteNoiseClub
http://www.youtube.com/user/atego08
http://www.youtube.com/user/IntJewryWonWW2
http://www.youtube.com/user/Hinomoto81
http://www.youtube.com/user/evabraun11
http://www.youtube.com/user/ImperiumArianes666
http://www.youtube.com/user/TruthseekTruthtell
http://www.youtube.com/user/BandOfBrothers25
http://www.youtube.com/user/DeutschlandFrau
http://www.youtube.com/user/Wehrmacht10
http://www.youtube.com/user/francons88
http://www.youtube.com/user/PureAryanBlood1488
http://www.youtube.com/user/Insane777Shane
http://www.youtube.com/user/NSGWP1
http://www.youtube.com/user/SSbombardmentXll
http://www.youtube.com/user/Einsatzgruppenn
http://www.youtube.com/user/rytis2005
http://www.youtube.com/user/SweetAryanAngel
http://www.youtube.com/user/EuropeanFascism
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheKkkbrotherhood
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProudAryanSkin88
http://www.youtube.com/user/1488naziskin
http://www.youtube.com/user/hidingblackviolence2
http://www.youtube.com/user/AdolfHitlerRules88
http://www.youtube.com/user/boyslipnkot666
http://www.youtube.com/user/NSAryan28
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNonJewMedia
etc, etc, etc..
Thank you and good luck.
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Hi
I agree with some of your sentiments but I find it a bit ironic that you have ‘hosted’ the video yourself whilst arguing it should not be allowed to be hosted. I have not watched the video. That is my contribution.
At no point do I say that the tram video ought not be hosted. It is exactly that type of public naming and shaming that should go on. That’s not free speech. That’s abuse. The racist, hateful content elsewhere on YouTube uploaded to those neo-nazi channels is the material that needs targeting and removal. Also, technically, the tram video is an embedded link; the video is still hosted by YouTube in to which were are peering via a punched portal. Not watching the video blinkers you to the racism and discrimination around you. I would rather see the world for what it is, notice abhorrent flaws in human society, then attempt to improve it.
To your response, exactly. The video itself should be seen, or else people would never know this kind of mindset still exists. It’s the hate that follows that should be banished.
I like your style…. Some very sound advice
I find the amount of “white power” statements and the amount of support of those statements quite disturbing. You are correct that this sort of behaviour should not be swept under the carpet. Be part of the solution or you are part of the problem!
p.s. Stephen Fry has tweeted this page – prepare for traffic
Back before Usenet was archived, there was a pro-neo-nazi group called alt.support.white-power. Usenet is completely unregulated, so nothing could be done. A small group of people (myself included) spent a lot of time debunking, teasing, and generally getting in the way of these racists’ good time. It was quite effective in quelling the hate speech.
Interestingly, and I think this goes toward your point that hate speech is problematic simply because it exists, one of the people who originally went to that Usenet group to taunt racists ended up joining them. A Jewish PhD became irritated with some anti-neo-nazi women and, over the course of a year or so, wound up allying himself specifically with the neo-nazis because they were as sexist as they were racist. He compartmentalized; he thought their antisemitic views were bad, but their misogyny was valid. Many on YouTube do the same thing, as you noted. They think it’s harmless “venting” when it’s much more than that.
Thank you for your post.
“Public naming and shaming” sounds like you which the medieval punishment of a “Pranger” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranger back in a modern way.
And then why stop with neo-nazis? Why not shut down all the militant atheists or all the videos about the “Westboro Baptist Church” because they hate with passion, or what about all the homosexual content which offends so many people.
You see if you begin censuring one thing then you are just censuring what you don’t like. Other people don’t like other things, should all the other stuff too be censured? Where would that end? I don’t see censuring as a way to go.
I must say, I agree with Quiet Riot Girl that it is really confusing that you say that those videos should be shut down but at the same time you seem to understand that it is important to be able to show what is going on so people understand the problem. Not looking doesn’t make the problem go away. Looking and talking about it, is a much better approach.
I used to live in England and now I’m in Detroit where racism is still rampant. I tell people it’s not that bad in England, and then videos like this come along to prove me wrong. People should be named and shamed. These undercover racists could be anyone, they could even be teaching your children at school.
While being shocked I never considered the influence one might have and being relieved many of the channels you list aren’t available in Germany (or no longer? that would be a quick success!), I also agree with Jeena’s opinion on censorship – where to start, where to stop? Thanks to you all for reminding me of my ignorance, will have to work on this.
The ignorance of upbringing lead some people to dislike themselves. Therefore their bended minds fluctuates to the easier way out to be deliberately attacking others for their very own short comings. Those unfortunately souls need real help
The West woman should loose the write to have or bring up children. She must be educated on the history of UK. I bet she barely can write her name. She is merely repeating what she have heard where ever she happen to live. Maybe gathered all those people in Wembley arena or O2 and have a week explaining to them all the real facts and then offer a follow up on their lives. It is a mammoth task to be undertake, someone have to do it.
That or something similar to that will help to minimize all those to frequent outburst of despair of the far right movement.
Most people refrain from abusive behaviour not because it is illegal, but simply because we don’t feel that way and that we know that it’s wrong. Legislation does not suddenly turn a racist purveyor of hate speech into Martin Luther King. Views like this need to be challenged, not legislated against, for that really is the thin end of the wedge.
This is going to be long, important, hard, endless work. You focus here on the downside (ie hatred and bigotry online). Worth always adding in the upside, well expressed eg by @TheCharter or “Charter for Compassion”. Worth a signup and RT.
I agree with some of what you say, but you make certain points that make me uncomfortable. First of all, I would like to point out that in all the dozens, if not hundreds, of youtube videos I’ve watched since youtube became popular, I have never once commented on one, and I think that’s the case with a lot of people. I would argue that most people don’t take the time to comment, or aren’t passionate enough to comment about videos posted, even if they are as disgusting as this one. The people who tend to comment on videos are usually people either hugely supportive of the content or hugely against it. And, even though you say this isn’t free speech, I would have to disagree with you- the beauty of free speech is that she can say those terrible things, and then I can respond that I think she’s an idiot and a bigot.
You also say that there are laws against discrimination and inciting hatred, but youtube is not a British-owned company, nor are twitter or facebook. These sites aren’t subject to British laws, but as soon as you try to subject them to any law that says users can’t post content of a certain nature (outside of gruesome or pornographic content) you get into the realm of censorship, and this absolutely cannot be allowed to happen. Does it suck that people who think like her can get together online and anonymously say what they want? Yes. Should we allow them to get together and say what they want? Yes. Because when you start picking and choosing what’s okay and what’s not okay to say, eventually no one gets to speak anymore.
You say this isn’t free speech, I would have to disagree with you- the beauty of free speech is that she can say those terrible things, and then I can respond that I think she’s an idiot and a bigot.
You also say that there are laws against discrimination and inciting hatred, but youtube is not a British-owned company, nor are twitter or facebook. These sites aren’t subject to British laws, but as soon as you try to subject them to any law that says users can’t post content of a certain nature (outside of gruesome or pornographic content) you get into the realm of censorship, and this absolutely cannot be allowed to happen. Does it suck that people who think like her can get together online and anonymously say what they want? Yes. Should we allow them to get together and say what they want? Yes. Because when you start picking and choosing what’s okay and what’s not okay to say, eventually no one gets to speak anymore.
I cried while watching this video. I guess that is my response. I can’t take the action you advise unless I happen to stumble upon such content. But even then I would sooner steer away than watch because it makes me sick, sad, miserable and I really can’t do that to myself. I guess I’m too hurt by it. I watch and see the ignorance and frustration causing this, and I see the hurt it’s causing to so many people; not in the least kids like that little boy on Emma’s lap.
I do applaud you for doing this. Thank you.
Go sit under a rainbow and write a poem. I agree the abuse is unnecessary but this is a bit over the top. Why waste time over a few racist comments, they don’t melt your eyes. You wouldn’t have said a thing to that woman if you were on that tram, you’d pull yer phone out and write an article about it instead.
The woman is clearly unwell and exhibits all the bad manners and poor communication that is so prevalent today. But don’t thing one nutcase is the problem here she is only echoing, albeit p. oorly, what a great deal think. Although most tend to keep it to themselves. No doubt this woman us equally inarticulate when discussing X Factor or ordering. a pizza. Society is exposed on too levels here the very serious drop in standards if public behaviour and the unchecked levels of immigration. If you put a lot of people from one culture with people of another culture you are going to wind someone up FACT no amount of legislation sol change that
I agree…I don’t believe in censorship. It’s a slippery slope and who defines the boundaries? Too subjective. Not interested in a nanny state. You have a good heart however.
I agree with Quiet Riot Girl, I don’t want to see that video and I certainly don’t want to read that transcript. I am already fully aware of how nasty it is when a person or persons commence an abusive verbal tirade against other people(s). However, you do make some very good points, not the least of these being that this person is clearly in need of psychiatric help. Unfortunately if she gets it, then that will mean more of our wonderful, overworked, undervalued and underpaid mental health nurses and orderlies of ethnic origin will come into her line of fire.
“…removing hateful content…” Hateful content. Precisely how does one judge such? I find some of the comment content aimed at West’s defense to be disturbing. I also find most of the random insults and the bile aimed at West herself to be offensive. Which do I report?
I find some of the comments posted here to be offensive. Do I therefore report your site?
Your notion of free speech confuses me.
Intent. I ask myself what is the intent of what I am witnessing. It quickly becomes clear if there is malicious intent involved. Not good, not defensible. Viewing malicious content as a vehicle of instruction on how to counteract said content? Well to me the intention is worthy.
I think some people seem to be confusing ‘the right to free speech’ with the seemingly implied, ‘right to inciting racial hatred’ as synonymous. The latter is a complete misnomer and its definition is clearly outlined in many western societies legal definitions (including the usa, the host country of youtube, facebook, twitter etc). On that basis i dont have a big problem at least alerting these websites as to what is occuring on their own sites. There is no legal/ethical right to attack another individual based on criteria they cannot change: ethnicity, gender, sexuality. If you disagree with that then our entire basis for common cause and shared problem solving: a fundamental basis for civilisation is called into question.
i clicked on the first youtube account in the list above. “user/michiskin” His main video was a sequence of photos showing bald men with their right arm in the air. Without words or narrative, i assume that the uploader wished to show how ridiculous grown men look with no hair and their right arm in the air like some wanton chimp begging for attention. And this is the point about “incite”… no one can MAKE me do anything. Its my free choice. If we bring up our kids right, they’re immune to this rubbish and it gets no energy or focus. No doubt this uploader has seen a spike in hit view count and will be encouraged to upload more.
Dont give it the focus. Personally, Id rather these guys be open with their message. I can see it, and decide appropriate action. It becomes a problem when it goes underground and ‘secret’. By making it public they effectively sign their own confession if they do break the law. Makes it easy.
*** NOW there’s also another line of thought that suggests the woman on the tram (and the train on the following day, [and clarkson with his idiotic comments]) are shills to stir up the immigration agenda all over again. Look whats happened here on this webpage.
I dont know about you, but if i was going to abuse someone, i wouldn’t do it on CCTV (the trams have them) and not in front of 50 witnesses, and especially not when outnumbered 20 to 1 by the classes of people Im abusing. So, maybe she is deranged, spiked up on cocaine, or a shill in a carriage of ‘agents’. Who knows? And this is the problem without full context; its just sensationalism to provoke a reaction. Once that momentum gets going, it can be controlled; next thing we have changes in immigration as a “solution” to the invented “problem”.
(at davebakersoccer “I tell people it’s not that bad in England” – it IS bad. Racisim in Britian is the most subtle and most damaging kind. The fact that you dont recognise this emphasises the danger of it. Britian is highly multicultural and therefore more likely to have cultural clashes. But we all pretend that everything is fine. It’s not, its very “hidden” and secretive and subtle and destructive. Hence my comments)
Peace!
I am totally against censorship as you would have to draw a very fine line between what is good and bad. Everybody is different and find different things offensive. Yes the woman in the video is an uneducated buffoon who is more of a sheep than a shepherd and thinks she is speaking out for the Great British public, but she just needs educating. As for the comments the video received some were truly shocking and that is from both sides of the argument. White supremacists and anti racists both posted hateful, offensive comments, but in a way that is the beauty of free speech. The only thing that annoys me is she will hopefully get a hefty fine or custodial sentence yet there are plenty of ethnic minority hate mongers that get away with it day in day out. Should be same punishment for both sides of the coin and not just for the majority.
Then my only other gripe is that it is a never ending process, as quick as someone gets banned they just make up a new account, too many websites just click a simple ban button and don’t ban the ip address or make it harder for someone to re-sign up.
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Trying to figure out how I feel about all this (everyday trying to figure it out) I’m just not sure YouTube should seek out and stop things .. I mean where do they stop. But viewers reporting that they thing it should be investigated and judged.. yeah I think I like that. Thanks for the article .. it’s so heavy though my brain and my heart hurt now. But this must be thought about. I don’t like ‘borders’ .. it’s a really small planet folks we need to try to play nice.
HI JFDerry – I’m well aware of racism thanks. For all you know I may have encountered it myself. I have read the discourse around the incident I just don’t feel a need to see it for myself.
YouTube is just a jungle, plain and simple. It seems that once you get to a certain sized audience, the comments just devolve into abuse. For that reason, I almost never read YT comments.
I do however support the idea of controlling hatespeech online. There will always be grey areas, but that’s nothing new – as a society, we’ve been making decisions about right and wrong since we swung down from the trees (perhaps earlier, I don’t know).
Just because morality isn’t an exact science, it doesn’t mean we should give up and let people suffer prejudice on the basis of things they cannot control, e.g. race, gender, sexual orientation.
I can only really echo what others have said here. Though I find that video and the content featured on other channels disturbing, we can’t simply attempt to close the channels down just because we don’t like what we’re seeing. Surely sunlight is the best disinfectant?
RJ says:
December 3, 2011 at 1:16 pm
“…removing hateful content…” Hateful content. Precisely how does one judge such?
Seriously? You can’t spot “hateful”? Are you that broken?
Thank you all for your comments. They fall loosely into 2 categories:
1. what I do is a good thing because racists and neo-nazis should be named and shamed and we can bring about change.
This is clearly the position I veer towards. The difference between a tolerant society that functions better because of its diversity, and one that deconstructs through rivalry is not based in language, but physical action. If it were simply a matter of free-speech, and I am all for that, there would be no problem, but inciting physical action, violence, hate crimes and murder is not acceptable at any level. Hence this blog post. Why is YouTube hosting material that facilitates these groups? BTW, the tram video is not an instance of that content because it is naming and shaming an individual/group for their racism and has elicited in the appropriately legal response from the authorities. It was produced by an non-racist to show racism. That is a vital distinction.
2. the internet is not to be moderated at this level because it is a free-speech issue, and where does one draw the line?
If the matter ended with language, fair enough, but physical response is demanded by these online groups. That’s what they got in Norway. Where next? Not Westboro Baptist Church, regretfully. The Phelps family are repulsive, but they do not advocate violence, even though they certainly invite it upon themselves, that is not the answer; the USA needs to find a legal way to deal with them. However, some of those I request you to actively target do have a history of involvement in criminal violence: FYI, the Aryan Republican Army, McVeigh (Oklahoma bombing) and Breivik (Norway) are all connected and have utilised the internet, including YouTube, to differing effect. Why can’t the law deal with this? Well, each country has legislation that considers hate-crime material, but it is national, and there are no international statutes. Therefore, given that every time one of these individuals acts, there is a strong connection with online groups, surely those online presences should be moderated.
Finally, none of this (so-called) “negative” action is suggested to replace “positive” action. There is need for both in unison and neither is a substitute for the other.
I would like to agree with the majority of comments here, and I would like to ask: What is hate speech? Who should we censor? People criticize anything or anyone in strong or at least robust terms? I would imagine that there is plenty of people, who would be more than happy to censor Christopher Hitchens, Sean Hannity, Salman Rushdie, Bill O’Reilly, Richard Dawkins, Louis Farrakhan, Bill Maher and so on… I am sure that we would all like to hear less (or more) of one or more of these people, but who should decide when a line has been crossed?
And by the way… I there are plenty of people that I hate (practicing pedophiles for example, or men in power, who force women who was raped to marry the rapists), should I not be entitled to express that? Even in a strong way?
‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.’
Evelyn Beatrice Hall
@Dany Hansen-Israel
please take another careful look at the blog post and through the comments, and tally those in support and those defending free-speech.
1/ you will see the number in support is more than those against
2/ you will see that I am not against free-speech. I am against violence (hate-crimes) arising from hateful content.
Aren’t you?
It is interesting that most of the channels including the clips you have linked here are blocked in Germany.
Blocking them does not help fighting the hate messages, of course, because the content and the clips are still available elsewhere and it is easy to get around that in Germany, too. I would not be surprised to hear that a lot of those users who pretend to be from the U.S. for example are in fact from Germany (or any other country with more restricted laws).
It is just too easy to use those platforms to avoid the laws in your home country.
I am always surprised that the rest of the world seems to have no problem with the display of nazi symbols and so on…
Loved this post. I do think it’s important to call people out for their hate speech. You might enjoy my blog on the topic of hate speech http://windupmyskirt.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/i-hate-people-who-hate/
Once again, you fail to grasp the constitutionally enshrined “Right of Free Speech” in the country that hosts YouTube.
These essays appear from time to time. All from countries where free speech is suppressed, that includes Britain. Say something the government doesn’t like and you get a visit from your local constabulary.
I don’t agree with that woman’s views at all but if you restrict her saying it then where does it end?
Remember that Britain in the past made being a Catholic illegal until 1829 and even then there were many in government who were unhappy and tried to prevent passage of the bill.
Secondly, you used the word horrifying ?, Seriously, It’s a woman saying unkind things about our commonwealth friends. I don’t see why that becomes horrifying.
The funny thing is I was on the front lines of a HUGE debate moments after this video was put up on Youtube. I was absolutely horrified by the remarks made by some of the users, and what they were claiming as justifiable. I thought the video I was watching was horrible enough, the comments made me lose a bit of faith in humanity well enough. Luckily, it was restored by the majority of people who were fighting against the racist comments being made.
This lady shows a real lack of education, if you looked into nearly everybodie’s past you will find someone from another country, britain has made itself successful on the back of all the different races that live here and their conections round the planet.
Some cheering things about the video, everyone except West behaves with pretty well impeccable good manners and restraint. The one who gives as good as she gets identifies herself as English (looks like West, actually) and makes it clear West doesn’t speak for her. A much more powerful putdown coming from someone not included in West’s insults. Also check out the black guy rising from chair behind to join in – a white girl waves him down, gesturing not to get involved and later hugs him as consolation. West’s behaviour was very unpleasant but she seems to be in a minority of one in this carriage.
The circles I move in, everyone actively hates and despises racism so it’s a pity something like this brings out the very vocal minority who don’t, but I woudn’t want censorship or people’s accounts closed down, much better to respond to their posts. Might do nothing more than show them that not everyone thinks like them.
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Jay said: “I am always surprised that the rest of the world seems to have no problem with the display of nazi symbols and so on…”
This is a very important point. The other day I read an article about a rising number of reported crimes commited by right-wing extremists in Germany. The figure rose from some 13.000 in 2009 to some 15.000 in 2011. However, the article also pointed out, that some 11.000 of these 15.000 reported crimes were “propaganda crimes”, which means openly displaying SS runes and Nazi Shwastikas, shouting paroles like “Heil Hitler” and such.
Over here in Germany we have a well known quote from Rosa Luxemburg, a famus communist politician after WW I. She said “Freiheit ist immer die Freiheit der Andersdenkenden” (Freedom is always the freedom of pepople who think tifferent (than we do)). I think democracy must be able to stand the hate speech of those who refuse to talk like we think it is inappropriate. If democracy cannot do that, I ithink it is hard to explain the core values of democracy to those who disrespect democracy.
But how to act positively in a practical way? My proposal: Never leave a nazi hate speech praole uncommented. Nazis tend to think that they are strong, when they are acting within a group and when they think, that this group is bigger and stronger than those who they are fighting against. We should show them that they are wrong. That they are the minority and that their arguments are not correct. Spoken in in social media words: Shitstorm instead of censorship. The big advantage: It requires far less personal strenght and braveness to argue against a nazi shithead in the net than to do it in a subway.
Hate to say it, but wasting all your time trying to censor someones view merely because you disagree with it or find it distasteful is something the Nazis would have done. We live in a free society where people can express their opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. Your actions in seeking to have people banned and their content removed is a form of censorship.
You may well believe that censoring this content is for the aim of stopping hate crime, but since when have the ends ever justified the means? I’m pretty sure watching a few youtube videos of neo-nazis ineloquently abusing people aren’t going to morph into ethnic violence by itself.
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